OnNegro Swan, his fourth album as Blood Orange, Devonte Hynes finds beauty in pain.
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Devonte Hynes is a real life Renaissance man.
He sings, writes, produces, directs, and plays at least half a dozen instruments.
Hes an avid reader whose music brims with references to historical figures and allusions to modern art.
Theres a palpable social justice undercurrent bubbling beneath the surface.
2016sFreetown Soundfound space for Debbie Harry, Nelly Furtado, and Carly Rae.
Each record employs vocals from local legends and samples of metropolitan street noise.
This week, Hynes unleashes Blood Orange album number four, the woozy, funkyNegro Swan.
The album is full of songs about making the most out of a hard lot.
Hes full of ideas and melodies; he sometimes catches himself humming when its quiet.
Were hearingSwannow because the artist feels its truer to his experience of the last few years.
Im trying to get to the feeling, he says of his mercurial recording process.
Im just doing whatever I can to get there.
The overlap between those two projects was very short.
The first Blood Orange album happened a year after the last Lightspeed one, right?Yeah.
They ran at the same time.
How did that work?
As much as everyone understands that everyones brain is always doing multiple things, people cant actually take that.
I never push everything Im doing at the same time.
Its weird for people to conceptualize you as an artist doing five things at one time.Yeah.
I think no one can handle that.
The public literally cant handle it.
They cant understand someone can make beats and design shoes.
Hes also given them a lot ofreasonsto have that reaction.Hes definitely given them some additional situations.
These things have kind of always happened.
I also think the biggest difference between them is aesthetics.
Charcoal Baby feels like a song from the second Lightspeed album.
How do you decide which project a song is best for?Usually a feeling.
I also write in such a weird way.
I kind of write everything at once.
I dont mean at once, in, like, a moment.
I mean everything is kind of like a big picture, and its being filled in.
Its rarely like, Heres a song.
I have tracks 116, and Im slowly working on all of them to fill up a picture.
So theres different ones of that.
Theres another Blood Orange album that isnt leftover tracks.
Theres an album I made, same time asCupid Deluxe.
I think I just ended up putting it on a cassette and giving it to people.
It existed as a whole other album.
What was the speed?
What was the energy of that one?That album makes sense as a link betweenCupidandFreetown.
Short tracks that jolt around, a little dialogue, almost like a mixtape feel.
I was working on that, butCupidfelt …
I wrote this as …
There was a period where I considered putting two records out at the same time.
Theres not enough of that.
Its easier to understand what the artist is doing one piece at a time.Yeah.
I ended up focusing more onNegro Swan.
I ended up visually focusing on it more and piecing it together and working on videos and imagery.
I ended up living in that world more.
If you want to look at it,Negro Swanis the diary of a couple of years.
This other record I made was me making a record.
Does that make sense?
Its like the water of a couple of years.
This other record is me being like, Oh, maybe Ill have a mojito.
You write a lot of songs that end up being recorded by other artists.
Do you write with specific voices in mind?No, not really.
Theres been only a couple of times through the years when Ive done that.
One moment would be on the last album.
Theres a song called Better Than Me with Carly Rae Jepsen, who I love.
Thats maybe one of the only times I ever thought of someones voice for a track.
Usually its just whoevers around.
Just being in situations, hanging out with people, and playing stuff.
If anyone has an idea, Im always willing to hear the idea.
If it works, it works.
If it becomes their song, then its their song.
I dont really have a protectiveness over stuff.
Im not precious with music.
I just want it to be the most interesting to me to listen to.
Sometimes that means handing it off to another voice?Yeah.
It could be a bassist.
Like, Wait and see what can happen.
Thats really how it tends to go down.
I dont necessarily think Im the best person to finish a song, just because I started it.
It can even be finished by a stranger in 30 years time.
I dont think Im the protector of the idea.
Theres a song on the new album called Runnin, which has Georgia Anne Muldrow singing on it.
Lyrically it was dark, but then she heard it and did what she did over top of it.
Now its one of the most hopeful songs on the album.
I never saw it going that way, but she took it there.
She has a very powerful presence.I could never have taken it anywhere even close to that.
Thats why Im always into just … whoevers around, just trying things.
I just want to try shit and see what can happen.
[laughs] Thats a pleasant way to put it.
Was growing up around London a positive experience?
Was there trouble?I think it was a bit of both.
It was complicated, as some childhoods could be.
I was beaten up a lot.
Put into hospital and shit.
I guess it sucked, when I think about it.
I kept to myself a lot.
There were people I was friends with …
I tend to be friends with people through activities, which maybe is quite the common childhood thing.
Skateboarding, or playing in school orchestra or whatever.
In fact, the only reason I started skateboarding was so that I didnt have to take the bus.
On the bus, people would spit on me and shit.
So I started skating.
People were just like …
Couldnt handle it.Mad confused.
They were the kids that bullied me.
You have this line in Orlando: All that I know was taught to me young.
Is that what you were talking about?Kind of.
I never really know where Im going in the song.
Im kind of just like going along, like a journal entry.
Im just putting these thoughts down.
Throwing them onto paper.
I was trying to do what Marvin Gaye would do.
There were certain lines that were written down, but I would ad lib them also.
Im almost looking at being this kid who … Is that why you ran into trouble?That was exactly it.
Im looking back at that, and thinking about it in Orlando.
Not even trying to understand it, but just thinking about it.
We teach children these very specific expressions of gender and attraction from birth.
A lot of people rarely challenge them.
It feels like you are interested in deprogramming that a little.I guess so.
[Pauses] Its all very self-serving.
If anyone can take anything [from a song], I would say that its cool.
Usually, especially with this record, I think whatever people think is correct.
I actually tried to make it that way.
Whatever you take from it is actually right.
Even if two people have different views, I think theyre both correct.
Because you didnt understand it at the time?Yeah.
Ive heard you say that the album is an examination of blackness and queerness and sadness.
Talk to me about that.Well, that was because I was being forced to give a press release.
Had you not really thought about it that deeply, the theme?Not at all.
My dream is to just make something and people will hear it.
My dream is … Heres an album, and people press play.
Theres still a truth to it.
Youve got the Janet Mock narrations.
Shes talking about otherness.
Shes talking about feeling like she has to perform normalcy for people.Right.
Theres definitely a truth.
I guess I just hate telling people what something is, because I dont want to …
I guess my thing is, I dont want to exclude anyone.
Theres just so many things that do that in life.
I never want someone to feel like its notforthem, or they dont understand it.
I want them to get whatever it is they can get from it.
Ive felt like Ive done that my whole life.
Ive taken whatever I can from things.
Even things that I am excluded from.
Ive been like, Fuck it.
And just taken what I can from it.
I dont really get the striations.
I guess that makes me weird also.Right.
Ive never got that.
I just take what I can.
Probably just because as a black person, people are straight-up consistently taking from black people.
Whether its land or a kick drum.
I think Ive always just been like, Fuck it, Im just going to take what I can.
Are you hopeful about the future?No.
Tell me more.I should say Im not hopeful about the future, but Im optimistic.
That doesnt mean that we have to live in hell.
Its hard to explain that properly.
You make your own comforts.
I dont think anyone should sit around thinking … things get better.
I always felt weird about that, actually.
You remember that It Gets Better campaign?
I always felt so strange about that.
I get what people were saying, especially because it was [about] gay teen suicides.
Theres value in the message, but its a little rosy, also.Yeah.
Its a bleak thing to say, It Gets Better.
The world is terrible right now, but stick with it.Right.
Ive never felt fully comfortable in that.
I was a queer kid thinking of suicide.
I dont know if someone said to me, It gets better if it would have done anything.
I dont have a place Im getting to with this.
I understand the experience.
20 years ago, I was in a dark place.
I was feeling lonely.
I get the value of it.
What does queerness mean to you?
For myself, thats what it is.
Its like, theres no set guideline in life, with anything.
Thats what it is for me.
We get a rep in America as having tunnel vision about our specific experiences of race and gender.
How do those experiences change for you as you pass between different countries?
I think its particular.
For example, I lived here a decade, originally from London.
Also, Im 32, so there was an age where I lived without internet.
Also, I live in New York.
So its not just I live in America.
I actually live in Manhattan.
Its almost like an outsider living inside.
Not growing up in black America, but coming to it through my 20s.
Even then, Im looking at it through such a particular lens.
In England, the black experience is very different.
Blackness is not … as deeply rooted in England.
It only goes back so far.
Ive always felt that … On top of that, youre not taught anything.
You have to learn it yourself.
We had very concerned black teachers making sure that we knew the history.
My grandmother would take me to Apollo and make me watch hour after hour of documentaries.Thats great.
I didnt have that.
Especially where I grew up, that definitely wasnt around.
Is it because of numbers?
There are statistically less black people per white person in England, right?Yeah.
Especially where I was from.
BNP and UKIP …British National Partyin the U.K. would have seats in my area.
Would win seats in my area.
It was that vibe.
You walked down the street, and you saw a British flag, and you crossed the street.
That is what I grew up around.
Its very different now, which is probably why Im really into going back to London more now.
Where I was in growing up, I never got that sense of community.
I felt very rejected.
It was something I had to really wrestle with in life, because it was very confusing.
I had insight to understand that upbringing and past.
I never really blamed the kids that would beat me up.
I didnt hold any disdain for them because I think it was just a result of systemic situations.
So, you recordedNegro Swanall over the world.
Is jumping into different studios a matter of bringing different energy out of yourself?Yeah.
It was all just experimenting.
I was so curious what could happen.
That creates a logistical challenge, to see what you could make with whats available?Yeah.
So I wrote a song on acoustic.
You have Diddy on the record.
He contacted you out of the blue?Thats how we first started talking, yeah.
He hit me up afterFreetowncame out, which is pretty crazy.
Procures your number and just rings you up.Yeah.
I think OmMas Keith gave it to him, but it was wild.
Hope is a departure for him.
How did that come about?I was working on the song with Valerie Teicher and …
It actually came about because I started doing a fake Puff vocal.
So theres a version of me doing that.
That was a real Puff kind of vibe.
Then I was like, Damn, should I just hit this nigga up and see whats good?
So I texted him, and he was like, Yeah, Im with it.
Twenty hours later, it was done.
It was kind of insane.
I still freak out that that even went down.
Thats how I actually want all records to come out.
There are people doing that.
If you think anythings a mistake, its been thought about 50 times, at least.
You took us from the strip club to the church.I viewed it as Saturday night and Sunday morning.
Thats exactly how I viewed it.
That was intentionally pulling you back into my world, and then landing in Dagenham Dream.
Its all been thought out so much.
Were starting to see more use of gospel music in hip-hop and R&B.
I feel like theres periods, where every few years people decide that they want musicality.
It bounces between extremes of just sounds, and then some people actually want music.
I think were in an everything-all-at-once kind of a moment.
Travis has the biggest record out right now, and its thick and really lush.
Then someone else will come out with a record thatll be straight trap.Slime Language.
Slime Language, yes!
Do you likeAudemar?Audemar is the fucking jam.
Its almost complete nonsense, and it is the hottest shit out right now.Its so fucking hot.
I also love, whats that song about clout?Gain Clout.That shit is fire.
I literally dont know how he does it.
I listen to songs like Gain Clout, and I dont know how hes made that.
Ive no idea how hes made it.
And Audemar, I dont know how he …
Why is he thinking of this stuff.
Why is he saying it?Its so fucking good.
It feels like its happening as its being recorded and thats …Thats the blues.
I mean, thats actually what the blues … Yeah.
You know who else, I think is actually a genius in that world is Uzi.
Hes definitely one of the up-and-coming greats.I always wonder if people see it.
It feels like theres no other time that he could have happened.
I grew up listening to nu metal and rap, and it was considered a little weird.
Now, this kid can rock a Marilyn Manson chain and sing pop-punk vocals, and its huge.
Im happy it exists.Its so sick.
It feels like he comes from a completely different melodic tree than rap.Exactly.
But then also people that could see it, I dont know if they are willing to see it.
I always feel that way about Carti, too.
I feel likeDie Litis some of the most out-there thinking shit.
Because I am not thinking when Im doing it.
My friend, this guy called Mikey.
Crazy, crazy, crazy talented musician.
My thing is that I do everything myself, but only because its a means to an end.
I direct my videos because its easier for me to direct them.
Mikey has been listening to the album, trying to work stuff out.
Theyre all in between keys, because I pitch and change things so much.
Theres a lot of that sort of woozy in-between key stuff on that record.
It gives me a late summer, sweltering heat kind of feeling.Cool.
Its like Im trying to get to the feeling.
Im just doing whatever I can to get there.
Did you have a lot of training as a musician?
You said you played in band.I played cello in orchestra.
Cello was the first thing, and then piano.
My first music that I played was classical.
After that was metal.
It probably went classical, metal, jazz, and then from there onwards into whatever worlds.
Did you have to unlearn a lot?
I never finished training on stuff.
In the years, Ive gone back and studied more.
Ive seen you play twice in the last few years.
It sounds like the record, in a good way.Thats cool.
It probably sounds better than the record.
Its hard for me.
Then I have to stand in front of a bunch of people.
Something about that really bothers me.
Have you read this?
[pulls a copy of the David Wojnarowicz book from his jacket pocket]
I havent.
I feel like your art is a kind of emotional anthropology.
Youre sorting through the past.
Youre trying to learn through the experience of music.
Am I wrong?Thats pretty much it.
Im someone thats going to be studying until the end.
I think that comes out in the records.
I think thats what youre also doing with your music.
You try and create a space of peace for those people.Yeah.
Im also trying to create it for myself, but everyones welcome.
Its important to me.
For it to feel like a place.
Like, an actual physical place.
Talk to me aboutNegro Swan, the name and the artwork.
It has a beautiful cover.Thank you.
I think the title … Everyones view of it is correct.
I think its as …
I think anyone can understand it.
It makes sense and you might pull from it any angle or direction and its right.
Titles have tended to be somewhat abstract before that.
I just think its like … Yeah.
Thats a 2018 quote.
That openness can be tricky for people, though.
Do you feel pressure on your end?
People dont know who to trust right now.
Theyll trust you as far as you say all the right things.I think about it …
I just dont really care about it.
Is this why youre not on Twitter anymore?Yeah.
I came back briefly.
Then I was like, Fuck that.
What am I thinking?
Id have to be psycho to even try and step into that world again.
I just dont care about it.
I would say that I care too much about conversations to be on Twitter.
Its like shouting in ink.
Thats not for me.
I like to have real actual conversations with people.
Its a shame, though.
I would love to be on Twitter.
It has a lot of problems they have no intention of fixing.Its never going to be fixed.
