Im not going to hide, not even from myself.
Were all gonna die anyway, so what have I got to lose?
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Throughout the roughly ten-minute black-and-white film, the two men joust, jostle, and test each other.
In person, Steve McQueen clearly relishes the back-and-forth.
He furrows his brow and looks intensely at you as he listens.
One would want it to be better, but it is what it is.
The film had a lot of critical support, but there seems to be a disconnect with popular audiences.
I might think a bit more about it, but I dont want to say, really.
My aim was that I wanted to reach a larger, broad audience.
The measure of my success was never about box office.
It never has been.
I suppose thats weird, but thats the truth.
Youve talked about how you identified with the original television show that inspiredWidowswhen you were young.
When I watched the TV show, I had that immediate connection with them.
Widowsis in many ways about underestimation, and youve discussed your own experiences with being underestimated in the past.
How did that inform the movie?Well, I think its everything.
I just think people will recognize everything because were quite smart.
I dont think thats answered your question, but can you hit me another.
Well, whats interesting also is how the women have ideas about each other.[Laughs.]
They come from four different socioeconomic backgrounds, class, race, what have you.
And for me, that is America.
Well, thats the mythology of America.It is the mythology, but it is the reality of it.
I mean, not one particular part of the country could survive without the other.
And if thats the way people talk about this country, that will ultimately tear it apart.
But the best future is about people being one because thats the only way this country can survive.
Otherwise, theyd be tearing each other apart; its just a fact.
Also, whats happening in Europe but again, maybe things have to get bad before they get good.
We can move beyond so-called differences.
I dont know, but its the only thing I have.
I dont know what kind of answer they would want.
I think audiences are intelligent, and this is to satisfy peoples intelligence and stimulate peoples minds.
In aninterviewafter you didShame, you said you couldnt make American movies because they like happy endings.
As you get older, you get wiser.
When youre young, theres a punk in you.
you might actually whisper.
Do you seeWidowsas your most optimistic film?[Pause.]
I dont know about optimistic.
Or hopeful, perhaps.Interesting.
No, its great.
I would imagine all my films are bloody optimistic.
He looks at himself and says, I know that somethings wrong with me.
I know that Ive got an issue.
I dont want to drag people through the mud; thats not my game.
Its about being aware of things.
And the whole idea of dragging people though the mud thats not my interest.
I will not do that, never.
I think of your gaze as unflinching.
We have to look.Ab-so-bloody-lutely.
I know its not over yet.
So again, you have the choice to be blinkered or to be illuminated.
And as an artist, at least for me, I dont have a choice.
I would say no, because again Im not going to hide, not even from myself.
Were all gonna die anyway, so what have I got to lose?
Is it that sad and simple?Unfortunately, yes.
I mean, thats it.
Because of Elizabeths height, a lot of people will cast her as a villain.
You know what I mean?
Someone like Viola is seen as some sort of holier-than-thou.
Shes dark-skinned, the black woman whos regal, when she is a woman who has a sexual appetite.
Again, shes a woman in every way and every form.
Its similar to how Cynthia Erivo is looked at.
I mean, Michelle is a sort of a tomboy.
Theres a certain idea of who she is or what she is.
Thats not the world I know.
So what I want to do is just portray our every day as it is.
The cinema screen should be a mirror reflecting the people in the audience.
Do you read criticism or reviews of your work?I try not to.
You hope it gets received well, but thats not the best mark to me.
If I did, I wouldnt be speaking to you now.
Some of the criticism was about the way in whichfemale sufferinghad been used in the film.
Maybe you werent even aware of it, but I was curious if that informedWidowsin any way?No.
I wanted to do the best job I could in translating that book onto film.
Why not?Well, I wouldnt avoid it because its part of the narrative.
Its a huge part of the story, and again, I couldnt avoid it.
The story wouldnt be the story otherwise.
Thats as much of an answer as I can give, really.
I imagine that people wish I didnt make the picture, but I did.
Can you talk about the writing process onWidows?
Its one of those things when you start writing, and you say, Can you do this?
We see each other, and she can write over me, and I can write over her.
Its how it becomes a sort of intertwining vine.
We spoke to each other quite often on the phone.
We actually saw each other on more than a dozen occasions.
And we never wrote in the same room together.
Look, shed do this.
It just made itself together.
Were very different, but we respect each other.
Could you be more specific?Oh!
Okay.I dont want to elude that question.
That was very important to me to put into the script.
Very, very important.
An idea of two kinds of feminism.
Its not for me to talk about because I dont want to mansplain feminism.
Is that something you saw or experienced with your mother?You know whats interesting?
I saw that more in New York with relatives that I had, who would babysit.
It is how it is.
You see a bit of it, but actually it just pushes the narrative along.
Thats what I love about it.
You never see that happen with men.
What happens to their kids.
What happens to the domestic situation.
Its like they walk out the house, and thats it.
Did you see the film as a way to honor women like your mother?Yes.
I mean, geez, isnt it great just to have a middle-aged black woman as a hero?
I feel also men can identify with Viola.
You identify with that person.
Its very important that she becomes definitely specific, but absolutely at the same time universal.
I watchedBearfairly recently.Where the fuck did you see that?
A friend of mine had a bootleg copy of it.
Sorry, I hope that doesnt bother you.Fuck!
And I read that, afterShame, you said you wanted to revisit the topic of male sexuality.
Our existence is because of it.
The majority of our existence is because of sexual encounter.
Male sexuality is very odd.
Its interesting you dont want to offend, and at the same time, you want to participate.
Thats a difficult one.
Its a road, isnt it?
Thats a heavy one.
I dont know the answer.
Well, to double back a bit, could you elaborate more on the difficulty of portraying male sexuality?
You did so withShame.Well, pornography is difficult.
I think that stuff is just wack.
Straight male pornography, because its sort of so exploitative.
What was that magazine called?Buttmagazine.
I think there are ways in which other hierarchies of power are reproduced.Okay.
Race, for instance.Absolutely some stereotypical bullshit.
Its not there yet, theres work to do.
Im working on something actually about that, and youre absolutely right about that.
Thats why its wrong.
Its a difficult road.
I havent got there yet.
Its a huge question.
Right now Im in 2013.
I dont know how it will ever come into fruition.
When filmmaking is concerned, its just too dense, its difficult.
Just through two middle-aged people engaged in a passionate kiss.
You see that in the street and you wouldnt even think about it.
You see it on the big screen it becomes whoaaaa it becomes something.
What do you think it became?Again, everything becomes so much in view.
Im not thinking that, but outside they would be thinking that.
Its beautiful, its fantastic.
Its difficult and great work to do.
An English guy, come on, give me an English guy.
What was so important in my life growing up wasqueer cinema.
I grew up at a time when there wasa revolution in cinema, which was queer cinema.
People having dialogue within cinema.
Its fucking amazing because you had these conversations on the silver flipping screen.
Theres a language thats being used within the medium of film, which hadnt been done before.
I was like,Wow its amazing.
So I grew up within that revolution.
Fucking hell, it was a revolution!
What was that one where they spat?
What was it called?
And theres the Asian guy, whats his name again?
Gregg Araki.Yeah, so there was a lot of that going on.
Youre seeing all this stuff, but youve got to be open to looking and trying to find answers.
Basically, what Im after is difficult questions.
I know, bullshit, bullshit.
It just broadens the possibilities of how you want to make films.
That was very enlightening.
Did Harry have a conversation with his son Marcus?
Did he havethe conversation?
And that his accessibility to things gave him privilege?
Did Veronica feel that?
I wouldnt think so, but who knows?
So much ripple effect, so much afterthought.
As any white person?
Are you willing to give anything up?
At some point you have children and you have a responsibility of the world they happen to be in.
So you obviously have to be aware of that.
Or have some understanding of that world that youre living in.
I imagine the majority of people dont take that lightly.
Its just how it is.
Its a minefield out there, in any regard.
Its unfortunate how it is.
You have to educate your partner.
I think race, sex, and gender its huge.
This whole conversation is about race, sex, and gender.
You see them in the past and present.
You see them every day.
All these questions can relate to so many things.
Can I ask you one last question?
I dont want to talk about Kanye!
