Save this article to read it later.
Find this story in your accountsSaved for Latersection.
As the lead singer of the Strokes, Julian Casablancas became famous for embodying classic rock-and-roll nonchalance.
These days, though, hes more interested in showing how deeply hes engaged.
Can you make complex truth sexy?
Casablancas rubs his eyes, then offers a wry smile.
Ive got a lot of ideas.
So I dont know.
Essentially Im disappointed so far in the internet.
Instead music has been co-opted by some kind of capitalist profit game.
Quality is being sucked out of music.
Ive talked about this before, but theres an exact parallel between music and politics.
Whats the parallel?People thought that the internet would lead to more information and more truth.
Its the opposite: People are way less informed.
Capitalism is a great idea but its changed.
Artistic value and truth value are casualties of the process.
But when you look at what gets nominated for a Grammy?
I dont understand what the hell its all about.
Sorry, Im derailing.
Is the state of popular music worse than its been in the past?Definitely.
Today someone likeAriel Pinkis relatively unknown.
In another era he wouldve been much more popular.
I dont know about that.
Whos a musician from the past that you think is analogous to Ariel Pink?David Bowie.
I dont know I keep wanting to jump between politics and music.
People are so unaware and everything is confusing and information is coming out of every orifice.
It might be terrible.
What do you call that?
I wouldnt say so.
Maybe I shouldnt even be talking about this stuff with you.
Maybe this isnt the right place.
We should talk about whatever is most important to you.
I almost feel about politics like I did about music when I was a teenager just learning so much.
Were essentially at war, a modern war against a calculator.
Everything has gone so over-the-top.
Truth and human suffering are not part of the equation of corporate profit.
What are your criteria for quality in music?Personally I look for something that elicits a strong feeling.
Whats the word Brazilians use?
Yeah,saudade.Something thats pretty and sad and powerful.
But I know thats not really objective criteria.
The problem is that [musical quality] is a little mysterious and thats why it gets scoffed at.
My bigger point is more that there is music with quality that gets ignored.
I mean, how doyoudefine quality?
Maybe thats something different?
I guess you could also look at things like proportion and balance and flow and originality.
Thats whats generating quality: the people who work the hardest.
But in terms of judging it superficially, thats like saying, What makes a good doctor?
There are a lot of possible answers.
Ill ask a more straightforward question …I just thought of something.
Theres a song byPorchesthat just came out.
I think its calledGoodbye.
The end of that song is really powerful.
The beginning almost sounds like Coldplay but from, like, a minute-thirty on its very, very cool.
ButRoom on Fire the title is not referring to a dance party.
Its referring to the state of things.
How did Bushs reelection change your thinking?I was completely baffled by it.
I dove in and started reading stuff.
Was November 2016 even more baffling than November 2004?I dont think so.
Oliver StonesThe Untold History of the United Stateswas another life-changer.
That book is kind of likeHoward Zinn.
I just feel pulled to this kind of struggle.
The struggle could have been against England way back in the day.
It could have been the civil-rights struggle.
Nothing about that has changed.
I strive to build a world where the Velvet Underground would be more popular than the Rolling Stones.
Or where Ariel Pink is as popular asEd Sheeran.
A world in which Ariel Pink is as popular as Ed Sheeran …Have you heard Ed Sheerans music?
Yeah.Do you like it?
Its not my thing.Do you like Ariel Pink?
Some of it.Do you think you have good taste in music?
In what world wouldThe Black Angels Death Song ever be widely popular?What aboutLoaded?
What about Rock & Roll?Those shouldve been bigger.
You look at the charts back then and he was at No.
He didnt have hits.
Jimi Hendrix was very popular during his lifetime.No, youre seeing it through the rearview mirror.
ButElectric Ladylandwas a number-one album.I dont know.
From what Ive seen I thoughthe had never had any commercial success.
People grow up with norms knocked into their heads.
And Im not trying to diss Ed Sheeran or any pop star.
Ed Sheeran seems like a nice, cool guy and I have nothing against his music.
Let him sell a billion records.
Now its almost like Ed Sheeran gets 99.5 percent of it.
The creative bands have been pushed so far into the margins.
Im sorry Im not good at explaining things.
No, I understand you.
Is the imbalance you just described discouraging?
Or does it make you want to try harder to break through?Well, here I am.
Thats all Im saying to you.
Because if you dont think thats whats happening, youre not seeing whats going on.
If youre asking whats personally interesting to me, this is it.
Im happy to talk music more if thats what you want.
To me, the Strokes I was thinking about it earlier today.
I just wanted to musically progress in certain ways.
You have to be super hard with yourself.
I did the same thing with the Strokes.
I was like, This is fine but I want to move forward.
Are you using mainstream as synonym for commercially popular?Basically.
So do you see a musician like Kendrick Lamar as being an outlier?
Hes inarguably both artistically valid and extremely popular.I would say hes on the coolest side of the pop spectrum.
Hes on the border of art and pop, which is a cool place to be.
But when I hear stuff likeJoyner Lucas,that feels more inspiring.
I believe art is objective, and that time is the truth-teller of quality.
I dont know.Dont you, though?
Let go of your conditioning.
But thats not how its turning out.
With my record label Im trying to find the Black Flags of today and get them heard.
But you never know whats going to take.
I blame the laws.
The Voidz is obviously a fulfilling outlet for you.
Is there fulfillment that you only get from the Strokes?
I think actors do that and it doesnt mean they dont like what theyre working on.
Its a different kind of energy.
That situation may be similar to me and the bands I play in.
The music onTyranny and Virtuemoves in so many more directions than a Strokes song would typically move.
We all like things from jazz to hip-hop to metal.
And harmonically now the things Im interested in are basically quarter-tone.
Essentially, Western music scales are seven-note or six-tone scales.
Can I take a step back and explain more clearly?
Im interested in the in-between notes.
Is the process different for the Voidz?I try actively not to write music anymore.
I find it better to be inspired by more finished things.
But its a mixture of that and the same old way.
Thats honest.No strong feelings one way or another.
I dont have an opinion about the nostalgia.
It doesnt make me mad.
Its not exciting, I guess.
To me its just more interesting when music has that bent.
Like,The Unknown Soldier bythe Doorsis this intense thing, but they also haveLove Street.
You know what I mean?
What do you think?
Okay, after Trump was elected.
I dont know I did wind up thinking that my job was pretty frivolous.But you have a platform.
you’ve got the option to use it.
Im the last person who should be talking about politics.But more people need to be speaking up.
Thats exactly the problem.
Shut up and dribble.Youre so wrong.
If not you, who the hell else is going to do it?
But whats your response to the shut up and dribble argument?That I have no agenda.
Thats why its okay for LeBron to be talking about politics: Hes not paid to do it.
Hes probablylosingmoney when he does it.
Theres no reason for him to say anything except what he believes in.
Thats the person I want to hear from.
Whos a model for you as far as politically engaged musician?You knowPaul Robeson?
Yep, of course.
The other day I watchedthe interviewyou did withHenry Girouxand you asked him what he thought of Bill Maher.
Then a day or two later my editor mentioned that hed once seen you at a Bill Maher show.
What do you like about him?Hes funny.
Thats a noble thing.
There are certainly things that I disagree with Bill Maher about, but I think overall he means well.
Ive heard people say that [Maher] is a racist, and thatsa whole other argument.
What makes you hopeful for the future?That the solutions to whats led us here are simple.
Its almost as simple as that.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations.
Annotations by Matt Stieb.
