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And yet some things stay the same.
Such consistent excellence is a rare thing, and as its purveyor knows, worth enjoying.
Did portraying that make you think about how your own view of love has changed?Absolutely.
Which is what happens in all long-term relationships.
Or if it doesnt, someones in denial.
People change and life changes and you cant have the same relationship as when you first met.
When people say, Our relationship has been bliss, I just go, I dont believe you.
What were you referring to?Romance is a very interesting subject.
I dont know whether Id say its a con now.
Back then I was challenging romance for all the right reasons.
Now Id say that what happensafterhappy-ever-after is where love begins.
Nobody told us it doesnt.
Its like childbirth: Everybody lies.
Nobody tells you the truth.
What are the lies people tell about childbirth?Maybe lyings not no, they do tell lies.
Theres no honesty about yes, its painful and people are now terrified of that pain.
Its odd how frightened weve been made to feel about the pain of it [childbirth].
And the women I know have children.
Its doubly difficult for women.
Thats why I wanted to do them justice.
Has your thinking about feminism changed over time?Oh yes.
Im learning new things.
Gender fluidity is fascinating to me.
The shifts in the sands of our development are so interesting at the moment.
I get very passionate about this stuff.
I rereadBetty Friedans bookrecently.
Then I think about the women Im listening to onThe Guilty Feministpodcast and I go, This is fantastic!
There are new voices describing what its like to be female.
So women are less lonely, less fearful, less weirded out by themselves.
Theres less going, You mean Ive got to fit intothatmold?
Which is good, because these gender roles that weve created are so reductive and painful and dull.
Theyre so fucking boring.
Have we seen changes to that system beyond the removal of the most egregious offenders?No.
Thats going to take a while because youre talking about power structures that have been around for millennia.
Our power structures arent healthy.
So we have to undo them, and thats going to take an awful lot of imagination and work.
We have a party in the U.K. called theWomens Equality Party, which is very interesting.
Theyre who you supported afterleaving Labour?Mm-hmm.
How have you managed to avoid becoming the witch of the village?
Thats what I mean.
Sophie shows people the system and how to do things.
Its about behavior, too.
You have to challenge behavior thats entitled or bullying or sexist or racist or homophobic all the time.
Because if you dont challenge it, as repetitive as that might get, the behavior becomes normalized.
One more question on this topic and if you dont want to get into it, I understand.
The answer is because it took that long for the accuser to feel able to bring the accusations up.
I have no idea what my specific question is.
This is such a complicated subject.But what youre identifying are, indeed, the complications.
And the complications are the things that we need to discuss.Theres no clear pattern to all these situations.
We have to recognize that Dustin might well have felt very confused.
But also thatJohn Oliver,when he challenged him, was extremely brave.
Dustin and I havent talked about this.
I dont know what he would have said to me about it.
But if you think about okay, another story: I was doing a thing with trafficking.
You were trafficking?[Laughs.]
Its just when Im a bit low on cash.
I immediately made assumptions:Oh, Christ.
Probably went to Eton.I started talking to him and he was saying, Surely these women know whats happening…
I said, Well, no, often not because there are certain vulnerabilities …
So woe betide you when you judge, because it always comes back to bite you on the arse.
This man the pain, the horror he felt.
And when youre young, you think everything is your fault.
Thats why people dont say anything.
We are given to feeling ashamed.
So when things do come to light, we have to recognize the fact that itisconfusing.
But lets listen to whos talking and work with them.
No matter how dreadful the behavior, youve got to learn why it happened.
Ive read you talk about that period as being difficult.
Why was that?I cant remember saying it was difficult.
Wasnt it around that time that you also became clinically depressed?I forget let me think.
Certainly I have had clinical depression, but for all sorts of reasons.
The thing is, I dont think of my career in phases.
Im sorry for asking.No, c’mon dont apologize.
Im explaining that I have changed, and my ideas have changed, and my memories have changed.
I dont even think of myself as ever having had a Hollywood career on any level.
I felt like an outsider and I liked that.
I always lived in Europe and being a visitor meant I was always welcomed here.
The best bit of working in America was meeting and working withMike Nichols.
And to me he represented he was so connected to what I thought of as Hollywood.Thatsa Hollywood career.
Actually, Ive been rewatching great 70s movies likeAll the Presidents MenandThe Parallax ViewandThree Days of the Condor.
Those movies certainly fit todays mood.Yes, I justhappenedto be watching those.
Gosh, theyre good.
You should watchThe Parallax Viewagain.
Its amazing.Anyway, were straying away.
I did find theOscar stuffquite hard.
I got ill every time.
I used to get chest infections.
That glare I dont think I would have liked the fame that Dustin and [Robert] Redford had.
The effects are often deleterious, shall we say?
Is it really true that Hillary Clinton was not a model for your performance inPrimary Colors?She wasnt.
I thought that was probably enough indicating.
I also thought I might get sidetracked if I was trying to impersonate somebody.And Mike [Nichols] agreed.
I havent met her and I havent read her book.
The exploration of sex and power is something that, again, were very unwilling to face.
I thought the sudden emergence of the new Puritanism following the whole Clintonscandalewas extraordinary.
The denial about what power is, what it does to people, how attractive it makes them.
I wanted to ask people, What on earth do you think goes on?
Thats the whole idea!
It was all so fucking dishonest.
Those politicians, the press their dishonesty and hypocrisy fucking blew my mind.
The difference now, as I get older, is that Im released by my boredom.
I no longer bother.
Im free to go and look for new ideas and new voices.
Im able with absolute comfort and ease to reject so much.
Its fantastic being this age.
Youre not that old!
What are you, 57?Fifty-nine.
I mean old in the really good sense of the word.
Ageism is another aspect of what were talking about.
Were constantly watching films where older men have wonderful roles and older women really dont.
But Im a character actor, dont forget.
Does the prospect of turning 60 have any special significance for you?It feels extremely fortunate.
My dad died at 52.
My uncle was 51.
My sister-in-law, a couple years ago at 51.
Ive got quite a number of friends who have dropped off.
You cant take survival for granted.
What else do I feel?
The work Im doing is more fulfilling and happy-making than ever.
I think your 60s, if you are well, are the most fantastic decade.
No more periods: resolved!
Menopause over: hooray!
Id say its the best bit ever.
When you get older its much easier to hold onto that appreciation because youre more mortal.
Its so enjoyable to be alive in this state.
Youre honestly bringing a tear to my eye.Good.
I hope it makes you feel optimistic about your own aging.
So many young people are confused and unhappy.
All the demands and the judgments and the better-than, less-than culture its fucking disastrous.
Although we mustnt get gloomy.
Lots of things are better today: dentistry.
Not a small a thing.Not a small thing.
You started out in comedy, right?Yeah.
Did you ever try stand-up?Yeah.
Thats a 35-year-old joke that I told on various occasions.
Such a stupid idea.
Those people were angry.
They didnt want to listen to my jokes about herpes and Margaret Thatcher both very big at the time.
Did you like doing stand-up?It terrified me.
But I did scary things like that when I was a young woman.
I had all of my 20s to fail.
I wanted to be a stand-up and then I wanted to be Lily Tomlin.
I had a chance to experiment, and thats riches beyond compare.
Young people who are successful now cant do that because the spotlight is there all the time.
Drama wasnt this whole other thing.It absolutely wasnt.
Comedy is your best training anyway.
Maybe its a matter of personal taste, but the greatest actors I know have a sense of irony.
Humor gives everything a real edge.
Ive always felt that humorlessness is the root of all fascism, really.
Which performances of yours stand out as personal breakthroughs?
I played a 77-year-old serial killer.
I loved playing somebody so far removed from myself.
And also doingSweeney Toddin London and on Broadway.
But those other two performances were full throttle.
I could really let rip.
You enjoyed playing a part far removed from the real you.
What about the converse: Which character of yours felt closest to Emma Thompson?
Yes, there was a lot of me in her.
That was the only time that I actually wrote to someone and said, yo give me this role.
Because I know how to do it.
I was doingKing LearwithTony Hopkinsand he said, Isnt it great?
I can do absolutely anything now.
Thats how I feel.
Hes not protecting himself.
Hes remarkable in that way.
This is maybe weird, but when I was watchingLear, I found Gonerils metallic-blue nail polish striking.
Can you tell me about that choice?I loved those nails claw-like.
Mike Nichols had this wonderful way of describing people.
He said theyre either metallic or porous.
And of course Goneril is profoundly metallic because shes had nothing but abuse since she was a child.
Shes been ignored, shes been rejected, shes been belittled and has defended herself accordingly.
Her nails were of a piece with thearmor of her clothing.
Back in the day when Brando turned up there was a huge difference.
And since then everyone says, Were all so old-fashioned in Britain.
Its all shouting and histrionics.
There was the belief that the more naturalistic style was better.
Sometimes naturalistic is great but other times you want someone to give a fucking performance, you know?
Weve nearly got to the end of creating the music.
Im using more or less the plot of the first film.
Whats been interesting about adapting is how different its turning out to be.
The characters change its fascinating what happens when it moves into a different medium.
So writing Austen-ian I actually didnt find that challenging.
Youll never be any good.
And another going, Live!
You have to live!
Theres also a fantastic book that was hugely influential on me calledThe Swerve[by Stephen Greenblatt].
The people who influenced me are those writers.
I was reading Montaigne last night!
What Id like to do in the future is a series ofessaisabout what its like being human now.
Ive even started writing a few little vignettes on living in Scotland.
Something just occurred to me.
Actors should be beyond the pale.
Im busy saying, I dont agree with this; I dont agree with that.
Dont you fucking try and label me.
And yet, hilariously, nowIm a Dame.So I guess my approach didnt work.
And Im jolly happy about that.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations.
